Episode 14: Matt Abrahams
Tips, Tricks, and Techniques for Spontaneous Speaking with Matt Abrahams
Episode 14: Show Notes
Are you looking for some tips, tricks, and techniques to propel your spontaneous speaking to higher levels? Our guest today is of the belief that there is no right way to communicate, there are better ways and worse ways but no one right way! Joining us today is Matt Abrahams, a professor at Stanford Graduate School of Business and author of Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You're Put on the Spot. As you tune in you’ll hear from Matt about the phenomenon of reverse plumbing, how to reframe your anxiety, and how the Rule of Lung works. He highlights why you should be maximizing your mediocracy and takes us through some simple, pragmatic exercises on how to do it. This is a truly insightful episode filled with valuable insights including why heuristics are important, how to hack them, and why having structure can amplify your creativity and freedom. Be sure to tune in now, thanks for listening!
Key Points From This Episode:
• We dive into the launch of Matt’s book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter.
• Matt describes the phenomenon of reverse plumbing and why it happens.
• He highlights a technique for reframing anxiety, and putting it into perspective.
• What’s really happening when we reframe our anxiety.
• The Rule of Lung and how it works.
• How to incorporate the Rule of Lung (in spontaneous or improvisational speech).
• Maximizing mediocrity and why he believes we should seek to be mediocre.
• A quick note on why memorizing does not work for planned speaking.
• Simple pragmatic exercises to strengthen your muscle and maximize your mediocrity.
• We talk about heuristics and how they can be helpful in thinking and responding.
• He expands on the concept of meta-awareness.
• Why heuristics are important, why we need to hack them, and how to do that practically.
• A short list of environments where you can use a heuristic.
• Matt shares useful hacks (and heuristics) to use in an apology setting.
• His thoughts on the biggest communication mistake people make.
• Tapping into not what we know but what the audience needs, in a spontaneous moment.
• We discuss the concept of cathedral versus brick.
• He talks about his podcast, Think Fast Talk Smart.
• How he prepares for spontaneity in his podcast.
• He highlights why having structure can allow for creativity and freedom to flow.
• The value of mistakes and how to reframe them.
• Matt and Jeremy answer a question from the audience about adding connection points when answering or responding.
Quotes:
“Feeling nervous before you speak is normal and natural. Most people experience upwards of 75 to 85% of people report feeling anxious in high-stakes situations, planned or spontaneous.” — @TFTSThePod [0:04:20]
“There’s a whole bunch of research around anxiety management and communication that says, when you are other-focused, it helps you not only connect better and get your message across but it helps you feel better about the experience.” — @TFTSThePod [0:07:04]
“Maximize mediocrity so you can achieve greatness.” — @TFTSThePod [0:14:03]
“Our heuristics, while they serve as shortcuts to help us respond in a lot of spontaneous situations, can lock us into a way of responding that makes it perhaps, less appropriate or not give us the opportunity to take advantage of what could happen in that moment.” — @TFTSThePod [0:22:40]
“The only antidote to the curse of knowledge in my mind is empathy.” — @TFTSThePod [0:28:40]
“Spontaneity happens within a structure.” — @TFTSThePod [0:38:50]
Longer Quotes:
“Most of us get nervous when we speak in high-stakes situations, be it a planned or spontaneous, and spontaneous is answering questions, giving feedback, making small talk, and one of the things that happens when we get nervous is we perspire, we blush, we get shaky, and I call part of that plumbing reversal. What’s normally wet gets dry and what’s normally dry gets wet. So, we get dry mouth but sweaty palms, which does not help us [when] we have to communicate.” — @TFTSThePod [0:02:46]
“I would say the biggest mistake that people make in their apologizing is they don’t apologize for their action, they apologize for how they made somebody feel — Instead, a good apology is to acknowledge and identify what it is that you did, “I’m sorry that I interrupted you” and then to explain and get at the core of how that might have made you feel.” — @TFTSThePod [0:26:27]
“I think making mistakes is critical. That’s how we learn, that’s how we develop. We tend to not want to make mistakes and we get really upset with ourselves when we make mistakes. I like to reframe mistakes as missed-takes.” — @TFTSThePod [0:44:03]
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You're Put on the Spot
It’s Not About the Nail YouTube Video
EPISODE 14 [TRANSCRIPT]
“MA: When most of us get nervous when we speak in high-stakes situations, be it planned or spontaneous, and spontaneous is answering questions, giving feedback, making small talk, and one of the things that happens when we get nervous is we perspire, we blush, we get shaky and I call part of that plumbing reversal. What’s normally wet gets dry and what’s normally dry gets wet. So, we get dry mouth but sweaty palms, which does not help us in that moment where we have to communicate.”
[0:00:34.4] JU: You’re listening to Paint & Pipette. I’m your host, Jeremy Utley. I teach innovation and entrepreneurship at Stanford University. Thanks for joining me to explore the art and science of bringing new ideas to life. Let’s dive in.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:58.4] JU: All right, welcome to another episode of The Paint & Pipette Podcast. I am delighted to have you with me today. If you wouldn’t mind, be so kind just to drop your details into chat, and let us know where you’re coming from, even though we can’t respond via this platform, we can see your comments and it helps us. If you have questions for Matt, my amazing guest today, feel free to drop them in the chat as well. Hopefully, we get to cover everybody’s questions.
I am pleased to invite Matt to the stage, Matt Abrahams, Professor at Stanford Graduate School of Business and author of the book, which you can see behind him, Think Faster Talk Smarter. Matt, thanks for joining us.
[0:01:33.1] MA: Jeremy, I am thrilled to be here and to continue the conversations you and I have had many times while walking and having coffee, this will be fun.
[0:01:43.1] JU: Should we just pick up where we left off and just let the audience catch up with us? Do you think –
[0:01:46.5] MA: Well, if I recall, the last time we were together, I got lost so I don’t know if I want to do that but happy to be here.
[0:01:52.4] JU: I won’t recommend the random park in the middle of Los Altos again, I apologize. Okay, we got a lot to talk about today because you have a lot of expertise to offer. When has – has the book been published actually? Is it already out?
[0:02:02.1] MA: Yesterday was the launch day, the book is out in the wild.
[0:02:06.9] JU: All right, how does it feel?
[0:02:08.4] MA: It feels great. It’s really exciting. You work so hard on it and I’ve just received a wonderful reception from people, it’s been great. I’m excited to see people put this stuff into use.
[0:02:18.4] JU: Okay. I think – I mean, to me, there’s nothing more timely and nothing more practical than tips and tricks and techniques for spontaneous speaking. I think when people hear this topic, as you note, even in your book, I mean, they immediately – I love what you call, reverse plumbing. I’m sure people are familiar with the phenomenon but how do you describe reverse plumbing and why does it happen?
[0:02:42.4] MA: Yes, so when most of us get nervous when we speak in high-stakes situations, be it a planned or spontaneous, and spontaneous is answering questions, giving feedback, making small talk, and one of the things that happens when we get nervous is we perspire, we blush, we get shaky, and I call part of that plumbing reversal. What’s normally wet gets dry and what’s normally dry gets wet. So, we get dry mouth but sweaty palms, which does not help us in that moment where we have to communicate.
[0:03:10.7] JU: Sweaty palms aren’t kind of some kind of adaptation that actually improves our ability to perform?
[0:03:16.9] MA: As much as it sounds like they should be a social lubricant, they are not. They get in the way, for sure.
[0:03:23.8] JU: It’s definitely a – I mean, especially, It’s off-putting in a physical situation where you’re shaking and sweaty palm, that does not set a good – Okay.
[0:03:31.3] MA: Well, it’s distracting as a speaker when you’re like, “Oh, that’s weird, yeah.
[0:03:34.6] JU: Right, and you’re kind of wiping your legs and stuff. Okay. So, let’s talk about one of the things, there’s a lot of stuff to dive into. I – what I love about your book is how practical it is and even the sections where you say, “Try it.” And I found myself really, kind of thinking through some exercise. So, I’d love to actually give, you can give me some of the experiences if you want, we can kind of demonstrate for people but I thought it can be fun maybe for folks if you don’t look insane at your desk, you can actually just try along with me if you want.
I don't know, we’ll see, depending on where you are or where you’re watching this point and live, you may or may not be able to do this but tell us about, I think, obviously, the first thing that comes to mind was spontaneous speaking is fear and anxiety. Can you talk about, yeah, in your book, one of the things you mentioned is a technique for reframing anxiety. What should folks think when they feel that sense of anxiety?
[0:04:22.0] MA: Well, first and foremost, feeling nervous before you speak is normal and natural. Most people experience upwards of 75 to 85% of people report feeling anxious in high-stakes situations, planned or spontaneous. So, it’s normal. We often don’t see it in other people, we have this weird perception gap, what we experience and what others see is different and when I teach my MBA students, one of the first things we do is we digitally record them giving a talk and almost to a person, they will say, “I looked more confident than I felt.”
So, I think one of the best ways to put your anxiety into perspective is to realize that you don’t look as bad as you feel. So, anxiety looms large, there are lots of things that we can do to manage anxiety. One way is to reframe it. The mindset we take as we approach our anxiety really can matter and you’re talking about a technique that was first researched by a friend and a colleague at Harvard Business School.
Her name is Alison Woods Brooks, and she did some research that was founded on this notion that the physiological reactions that we have to anxiety are the same that we have when we’re excited, our body has one essential arousal response. Our heart rate goes up, we get a little shaky, we might blush. These happen, if I said, “Jeremy, you have to give a speech in 10 minutes” you might have the same physiological reaction.
And you think, “Oh, this sucks.” But I might say, “Hey Jeremy, you just won the lottery. Same physiological responses and you’re going to be really excited. So, what Alison did is she actually studied if you can help people reframe the physiological experience they have as a excitement versus anxiety, they actually not only feel better, they perform better, they’re communication actually is better.
So, reminding yourselves that this could be exciting, you have value to bring, you’re going to help people learn something, and if you can lean into that and see it as exciting, it can really help.
[0:06:24.3] JU: Yeah, that’s beautiful. I actually – it wasn’t a public speaking moment per se but my daughter had a piano recital and she was sitting beside me and said, “Dad, I’m so nervous” and I said, “Tell yourself you’re excited.” What’s going on there when we reframe it? Are we actually able, are we in a sense relabeling that physiological response?
[0:06:45.5] MA: Absolutely. We are relabeling it and we’re giving ourselves permission to see something that we thought was negative as something that could be positive and by viewing it positively, not only does it help us relax but it also helps us connect more. When we see it as something of excitement, it takes us out of ourselves and puts us in service of the other and there’s a whole bunch of research around anxiety management and communication that says, when you are other-focused, it actually helps you not only connect better and get your message across but it helps you feel better about the experience.
So, reminding yourself that you have value to bring and it’s exciting to help others can be a great way to manage anxiety.
[0:07:23.8] JU: Yeah, I really – I like what you said there about in service to the other because even as I was interacting with that, I don't know if you call it mantra or matter or whatever but I have value to bring. If the emphasis is on the “I” that can seem selfish but what you’re saying is, it’s actually about – it’s the emphasis is on the bringing, it’s the giving.
[0:07:42.4] MA: Yes, yes.
[0:07:42.4] JU: It’s the sharing.
[0:07:43.2] MA: Yes. Absolutely, and I like calling it a mantra or positive affirmation. If we were to listen to what we say to ourselves right before we speak, either planned or spontaneously, we say a lot of negative things to ourselves, like, “Oh, we better not screw up or you should have practiced more” Or, “Why am I doing this and not Jeremy?” All of those negative things actually set us up to do poorly.
And if you can replace those negative thoughts with something positive and it doesn’t have to be like, “I’m the best speaker ever.” It could just be, “I have value to bring” or “People can learn from me” or “I know my stuff.” That helps quiet down that negative self-talk and sets you up for success.
[0:08:21.3] JU: Yeah, that’s great. Let’s talk about, just in relation to the whole anxiety thing. “The rule of lung” What’s the rule of lung and how did you –
[0:08:30.5] MA: You really did a good job of reading the chapter. You get an A-plus on the book report. So –
[0:08:34.5] JU: Yeah, I got to do my homework, I’ve got to do my homework.
[0:08:36.1] MA: That’s right. So, perhaps the most important thing to do to manage anxiety and bolster confidence is deep breathing. The kind of breathing you would do if you’ve ever done yoga, Tai Chi, Chi Gong, where you really feel your lower abdomen. If you’re wearing pants, they should feel tight after you’ve inhaled and the key is, the exhale, not the inhale, the relaxation response occurs upon exhalation and the best way to encourage that to happen is to have your exhale be twice as long as your inhale and that’s what I call the rule of lung.
You know, it’s not a rule of thumb, it’s a rule of lung, you want your exhale to be twice as long as your inhale. So, if you take a three-count in, hold for a second and take a six-count out, and the cool thing is, you only have to do that two or three times to experience the benefit of the reduced heart rate, the adrenaline calms down, the sweating and blushing all dissipates a bit by just doing deep breathing.
[0:09:34.4] JU: So, when I think about that, as I was interacting with that, I feel a lot of times when spontaneous or improvisational speech is required, my hesitation with the rule of lung is, is there an awkward pause that’s going to come in? How do I incorporate the rule of lung, and even the perceptions of others with my awkwardness if I attend to my breathing?
[0:09:54.6] MA: So, the cool thing is, it doesn’t have to happen in that moment. You can do it a few minutes in advance and still benefit from it. So, if I’m walking into a mixer of some sort or a social gathering where I know chitchat and small talk is going to happen and that tends to get me anxious, I can take that breath before I ever walk into the room.
If we’re virtual and I’m about to go into a meeting where I might get questions about my part or contribution, before I hit the unmute button, I could take that deep breath. Nobody knows what I’m doing. So, it doesn’t have to be in the immediate moment. Now, that said, if you feel like you need to take that breath, you can pause, a pause is great. I’ll give you an example. In Q&A situations, people often feel that they have to immediately answer the question.
So, as soon as you stop asking, I have to immediately answer because that demonstrates I know my stuff. It’s okay to take a pause and in that pause, you can take a breath. So, there are lots of ways to do this without it adding more stress. The goal of the deep breathing is not to make people more stressed. So, give yourself a little bit of room, you can do it a few minutes in advance.
[0:10:58.1] JU: One thing that you’re reminding me of, actually, there’s two things. One is, I should have hit mute because as you’re talking about deep breathing, I’m trying deep breathing and perhaps, I don’t know if people heard it.
[0:11:07.7] MA: I talk so much Jeremy, nobody heard it.
[0:11:10.9] JU: Okay, that’s good, and then the second thing you remind me of is our colleague, Andrew Huberman, who you’re talking about exhaling. One thing – I can’t even remember the context of it but I learned about his technique where he says, you breathe in, and then you breathe in more.
[0:11:24.5] MU: Yes, yeah.
[0:11:25.4] JU: And apparently, with that does is it fills kind of micro sacks on your lungs. So, anyway, maybe there’s the rule of lung, breathing out, more than you expect and then there’s a breathing in and breathing in again as a compliment.
[0:11:37.3] MA: Right, yeah. So, Andrew was on my podcast and he’s the one that taught me about that exhalation. I have been teaching deep breathing for decades but I had not learned until I met with him that the exhalation is where the magic happens. So, yes, there are lots of different types of breathing. He has that one he likes to do exactly what you’re talking about, where you’re fully inhaled and then you take just a little bit more air and you hold it and release. The same idea is on the exhalation though, it’s longer than the inhale.
[0:12:03.8] JU: Okay, let’s go to you advocate an unexpected tactic, which is we come at it from a bunch of different angles but why should we seek to be mediocre? I’ll leave it at that, just to start with.
[0:12:18.0] MA: Yes. So, I have a whole chapter in the book, it’s called, maximize mediocrity and here’s the reason –
[0:12:23.7] JU: It’s so counterintuitive, right?
[0:12:24.6] MA: It is, well, part of what I loved about writing this book is a lot of the advice is counterintuitive. Like, prepare to be spontaneous but in fact, it makes sense. If you’re an athlete, you always prepare before you go into the game and so it makes sense but a lot sounds counterintuitive just like Maximize Mediocrity. Here’s the thing, most of us when we communicate, we want to do it right. We have a strong perfectionist bent to it.
We want to say, the right thing in the right way, in the right moment, and the reality is, there is no right way to communicate. There’s certainly better ways and worse ways but there is no one right way and by putting pressure on ourselves to do it right, we actually reduce the likelihood that we will do it well at all. So, for example, think of your brain as a computer, it’s not a great example but it works for this.
You know, if you have on your laptop, or on your phone, a lot of apps or windows opened, it doesn’t perform as well because you’re taxing its bandwidth. The same thing is true with our brains. If I am constantly judging and evaluating what I’m trying to say, while I’m saying it, I have less bandwidth to dedicate to actually just saying it, and this is why memorizing does not work for planned speaking because if I memorize something, a lot of my mental effort is tracking what I’m saying to the memorized script so I can’t be as present.
So, maximizing mediocrity simply means, giving yourself permission just to get it done, just say what you need to say and in so doing, because you’ve dialed down that evaluation, you actually have more resources to do it better. So, the full saying is, maximize mediocrity so you can achieve greatness. When you get out of your own way, the judging and the evaluating, you actually can do better.
Now, I am certainly not saying, Jeremy, that we should never think about what we’re saying, we certainly should but we turn the volume down on that and it can really make a difference.
[0:14:23.5] JU: Well, and you know, as when we discussed, when I was on your podcast, that idea flow, one of the counterintuitive ideas that I think really dovetails nicely with creativity and idea generation is the way to get great ideas is to allow yourself to have bad ideas, right?
[0:14:36.6] MA: Yeah, that’s right.
[0:14:37.8] JU: And you just said, maximize mediocrity so you can achieve greatness, which is to say, do lots of bad so you can get to good, right? Which is very similar.
[0:14:46.9] MA: Rights. It’s yeah, it’s taking the judgment out and you know, the episode you did on Think Fast, Talk Smart is one of our most popular, and a lot of it has to do with the counterintuitive nature of some of the advice you give and I think you’re right. The two concepts really connect well.
[0:15:04.4] JU: So, how can we practice this? And I thought maybe if you want to lead me even through something, maybe folks can do at home as they listen later or even at their desk now if people won’t think they’re crazy. When you talk about maximizing mediocrity, what are simple pragmatic exercises someone could do to strengthen that? Is it to weaken the perfectionist muscle? I don't know what it is but –
[0:15:26.2] MA: It’s to turn down the volume on it is the way I say it. So, let me give you two activities, how’s that? One is silly and – which really brings it to the forefront and one is less silly and probably a little easier to do. So, in my classes, I have the great fortune of working with just some amazing colleagues who are experts in improv and one of my colleagues who I teach classes with, his name is Adam Tobin, he also teaches at Stanford.
He introduced me to this technique, it’s a game, it’s called, “Shout the wrong name” and anybody listening right now, who is in a space that it would be appropriate to do, you can do this. So, here’s how “Shout the wrong name” works. You literally just look around the environment you’re in and you point at different things and you simply call them anything but what they are.
So, if I’m pointing to the window, I might say, door, if I’m pointing to this desk, I might say, tiger. Just, anything that but what they are and I instruct my students on the first day of class to do this for 15 seconds, and they find it incredibly difficult. It’s incredibly difficult. In fact, Jeremy, can we try this for literally five seconds? I’m going to take five seconds, okay, and I’d like you to play along, I’ll play along.
Anybody wherever you are, as long as you’re not too loud, I want you to point at things in your environment and call them anything but what they are. Okay, five seconds, ready, go. Peanut butter, pinnacle.
[0:16:44.4] JU: Banana, orange peel.
[0:16:45.9] MA: Car.
[0:16:46.3] JU: Tiger.
[0:16:47.1] MA: Own, Snail.
[0:16:47.7] JU: Galapagos.
[0:16:48.8] MA: Yellow, ugly.
[0:16:49.1] JU: Distribution center.
[0:16:50.5] MA: All right. Time.
[0:16:51.0] JU: Door.
[0:16:51.9] MA: Time. You were doing great there Jeremy. I was listening to some of those things you were saying. Many people –
[0:16:57.1] JU: I don’t know where they come from.
[0:16:58.0] MA: That’s right. Well, see, if you get out of your own way, they come easily. Here, I want to just walk people through a real expedited version of the debrief I do in my classes that I learn from my colleague, Adam to do. So, first, for many people, this was hard and when I ask why was it hard, people will say, “It was hard because I couldn’t think that fast” and then when we interrogate that more, it’s because they’re actually judging and evaluating.
And then I’ll ask, “Did you do anything that was helpful to you?” And people will say “Yes” several things. I got into a pattern. So, a pattern might be, I would call something the opposite. So, if I pointed at a window, I would call it a door. If I pointed to the ceiling, I’d call it the floor. Some people say I got into categorize, I just went through animals. Other people say, I got a alliterative, I just stuck with the same letter.
These are called heuristics and I know Jeremy, you’re very familiar with heuristics because it’s important to the work you do on idea creation, et cetera. Heuristics can be very helpful in thinking and responding but they can also get in the way because they’d lock you into something. If I’m going to call everything an animal, it means that I’m going to be able to call things something but it means I’m not going to call them something else, which might have been in the moment something that was more appropriate.
What invariably happens when I do this activity with my students is, there will be somebody who just gets locked up. They can’t do anything. I had a student a couple of years ago who just kept pointing at a chair and nothing came out of his mouth. So, I, of course, I saw this and I approach, I go, “What’s going on?” And this is what he said to me, he goes, “I was not being wrong enough.”
Now, I want you to think about that. I never gave a rubric, I never said, “Here’s the right, wrong, and the wrong-wrong.” He, in his mind, came up with some metric of rightness and wrongness and I said, “Tell me more.” He said, “Well, I was going to call the chair a cat but a cat has four legs and a chair has four legs and sometimes a cat sits on a chair.” Do you hear the machinations he is going through the judging and evaluating?
All he needed to do was say cat or something else and this is how we get in our own way. So, the power of this activity is it highlights for most people, how we judge and evaluate what we say before we say it, and just by becoming aware of it, people realize, “Oh, I don’t have to do that or I don’t have to do it as much.” So, that’s the fun, silly way and anybody can do this at any time.
You know, you can do it while you’re driving as long as you focus on the road, you know, don’t hurt anybody, you can do this with your kids, you can do this and it’s a fun game to play, and the thing is, once you let go of this, it’s faster and more fun. Now, the more practical application of this is I’d like for people to think about times where they have in the moment responded well and times where in the moment they have not responded as well.
And I ask you to think about what was going on in your mind during those times that it went well. In terms and in times where it wasn’t and invariably, people will say, “During those times that it was going well, I felt like I was just in the flow, there was just – things just came easily. I wasn’t judging, I wasn’t aware of what was going on as much around me, I just did it.” And by reminding yourself of what that’s like, you can enter into that state more of lowering the judgment. So, two different ways to get at the same thing.
[0:20:10.9] JU: Now, how do you – maybe I had just a mental block or something but even that prompt of “Remember when we did and I find myself going, I can’t think of a time that it went well or I can’t think of a time that it…” Are there guide posts that you offer folks to even, as they move forward through life to go, “Ooh, write that down or you know, pay attention to that” as an example but you can – can you pull that debrief almost into the present as you go through life?
[0:20:36.8] MA: Yeah. So, part of what I try to develop and all the classes I teach and the work I do is this meta-awareness and that meta-awareness is not judging and evaluating but it’s noting things. So, it’s just, “You know, it went really well when nodded as Jeremy was speaking because he seemed to say more than he did the time before when I didn’t nod.”
So, just making these mental notes that we can then later, in time, reflect on I think is really important. So, perhaps my wording should be, more appropriate. So, instead of saying, “A time it went well.” Maybe say, “A time it went better than other times” right? So, what are things that are happening when things tend to go better for you in your spontaneous speaking and times when they don’t and let’s look to see what we can do in those circumstances to lean into the behaviors and mindset we take in the moments it goes better.
[0:21:26.3] JU: Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. Okay, you mentioned this word, heuristics. I’d love to come back to that, no surprise to you, I’m sure. So, why, you mention hacking heuristics? Why is it important? I mean, I think we all know that there’s some real value to heuristics and yet, in your book, you actually talk about the need to hack them and to short-circuit them. So, why is that the case and then, how can we do it practically?
[0:21:51.6] MA: Right. So, I’m not saying all heuristics are bad, that they’re actually very helpful but there are times where our heuristics lock us into a way of responding that might not be so appropriate. So, for example, let’s say, Jeremy, you share with me something that didn’t go as well as you wanted and I know you’re traveling. You might tell me, “Hey, you know, the flights were delayed and I had to miss a meeting with somebody.”
A heuristic that many of us invoke in that case is, I just say, “Oh well, sorry to hear that, it is what it is” right? That’s a heuristic. It fulfills my obligation to respond to your situation but in fact, if I do that and I just rely on that heuristic, I might miss an opportunity to really connect with you. Maybe that meeting you missed or were late for was really important to you and what was needed in that moment for me to demonstrate empathy and concern was to ask you about that.
So, our heuristics, while they serve as shortcuts to help us respond in a lot of spontaneous situations, can lock us into a way of responding that makes it perhaps, less appropriate or not give us the opportunity to take advantage of what could happen in that moment. So, I’m not saying eliminate, I’m simply saying, let’s turn a habit into a choice.
So, in that moment, I can make a choice to say, “It is what it is” Or I could say, “Oh, I’m sorry you missed that meeting. Tell me more about what that means for you?” And in that moment, it might mean something really important that I ask that question that way.
[0:23:14.6] JU: And so then, how do we – when we – it’s one thing to be aware of it, how do we start to hack them practically? Are there tips you have?
[0:23:21.6] MA: So, I think awareness is the first, is we have to note what we do. You know, what are the things that we say in these different circumstances? So, every time we walk into a small talk situation, do we say, “Oh, tell me what you do” right? That’s a very common heuristic, asking what people do. So, noticing. “Oh, I tend to do that” and then challenging yourself, “What else could I do?”
So, you can’t affect change until you know what your habit is here, and then once you’ve done that, then become – two things. One, start thinking about, “What are other choices I could invoke in that moment?” and then start to observe what other people do. My mother-in-law was amazing at small talk and I really wanted to lean in and understand what does she do. So, several years ago, I just started paying attention and watching.
And she would always use the phrase, “Tell me more.” It wasn’t a heuristic because she would use it in appropriate ways but I started noticing, “Oh, this is the unlock for her that makes it work.” So, through observing others, we can begin to see what might work for us but first, we have to be aware. We have to be open to change and open to the experimentation of what it can be like when we let go of those heuristics.
[0:24:26.8] JU: One thing that is striking me here is how context-dependent some of those heuristics are, right? Is there a short list of context that you recommend? For example, showing up at a dinner party, you know, being at a child’s soccer game. Are there – is there a short list of kind of environments where you can do a heuristic?
[0:24:45.6] MA: So, instead of environments, I would say, the demand, the communicative demand is what I would say and the whole second part of my new book is six situations that many of us find ourselves in where we have to do small talk and I think those are great places to start – not small talk, to do spontaneous speaking. So, there are things like small talk, making apologies, having to persuade or influence somebody, giving feedback, answering questions.
We all carry around a whole bunch of heuristics that we use in those circumstances and you know, I can give feedback to my kid at a soccer game, I could give feedback to a colleague, I could give feedback to a student. I have heuristics that I use in each of those specific feedback contexts, so I think that’s a good place to start as we explore the heuristics that we use.
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:25:35.8] JU: Research is clear that our first idea probably isn’t our best idea. That’s true for you, me, as well as your organization but that first idea is an essential step to better ideas. So, how do you improve your idea flow? That’s my passion and the work I do with organizations. If you’d like to explore how I can help your organization implement better ideas, let’s talk. Check out my website, jeremyutley.design, or drop me a line at jutley@jeremyutley.design. Let’s make ideas flow better.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:26:12.1] JU: Can we talk about giving apologies for a second? Just because I think that’s kind of an unexpected one. What are some heuristics you have observed folks defaulting to and what are some good useful hacks in an apology setting? That’s such a rich – emotionally rich moment, right?
[0:26:26.9] MA: Yeah, I would say the biggest mistake that people make in their apologizing is they don’t apologize for their action, they apologize for how they made somebody feel. Like, “I’m really sorry Jeremy that I made you upset” right? Instead of, “I apologize that I interrupted you when you were speaking” right?
So, when I apologized from – people will say, “I apologize. I’m sorry that you feel so bad about what I did.” That’s not really an apology for what you did and that’s empty and that’s a heuristic, we tend to do that all the time. Instead, a good apology is to acknowledge and identify what it is that you did, “I’m sorry that I interrupted you” and then to explain and get at the core of how that might have made you feel and I could ask.
I could say, “When I interrupted you, how did that made you feel?” or I could say, “I could imagine by interrupting you, you felt that I was devaluing your contribution.” So, I’m demonstrating that I understand the impact that it had and then I’m a big fan of making amends, so be very clear what you’re going to do. “The next time we’re speaking, I’ll make sure to let you finish and in fact, I’m going to paraphrase what you said before I contribute my part.”
So, many of us just default to certain responses when we paraphrase and what we need to do is really think about how we can make amends for what we did.
[0:27:46.3] JU: Yeah, that’s great. I think that even that step of I can imagine, you know it’s like a parenting trick, right? We do it with our kids, I do it with my kids all the time, where you know it’s, “How does that make you feel that she had done that to you?”
[0:27:59.2] MA: Right.
[0:27:59.9] JU: And these kids, I feel like you reach a certain age in adolescence and they say, “Oh, I wouldn’t care” but a young child actually says, “It would make me sad.” Like yeah, yeah.
[0:28:09.1] MA: Yeah, I think that’s great. That’s lovely and think about what you’re teaching in that moment, which I think is fantastic.
[0:28:15.3] JU: But I like taking that as a tactic for myself imagining what the other person felt. I don’t think that we do that nearly enough.
[0:28:23.2] MA: No and that type of empathy is critical to communication. The biggest communication mistake I believe people make is they start from the wrong place. They start from saying, “Here is what I want to say” rather than, “What is it that you need to hear?” You’re familiar with this notion of the curse of knowledge, we know too much about the topics we speak on. The only antidote to the curse of knowledge in my mind is empathy.
You have to put yourself in the other’s perspective and that’s what gets you to be able to communicate better.
[0:28:50.0] JU: How do we develop that sense of empathy, again, getting back to a spontaneous communication moment? I love your line, they only antidote to the curse of knowledge is empathy. In a spontaneous moment, how do we tap into not what we know but what the audience needs?
[0:29:07.2] MA: Several things. So, one is observation, look at what’s going on in the moment. How is somebody holding themselves, do they look emotional in some way, upset, excited, etcetera? What’s the environment I’m in? So, noticing the context and noticing the person’s demeanor I think are really important to give you clues about how to be empathetic and tailor the message to their needs.
Asking questions I think is really important, clarifying questions. You know, the trap I always fall into and I am still working on a lot of these things myself, I’m a problem solver and so for example, when my wife comes to me, she’ll say, “I had a bad day and all these things happen.” I immediately jump in and say, “Okay. Well, here’s what we could do to solve it and have you thought about this?” and that’s exactly not what she needs or wants.
And so, I’ve taken now to asking the question, “Do you want me to just listen or do you want to brainstorm some ways to address these issues?” So, another way to get it right and to be empathetic is to ask questions, “What’s needed in this moment?” and to express that and there’s some research that says by asking questions like that, you actually bolster trust and credibility because people see you’re really trying to connect to them and their needs.
[0:30:14.8] JU: That’s beautiful, that’s spot on. As an aside, you’ve got to watch the YouTube video called, it’s not the nail.
[0:30:22.9] MA: Yeah.
[0:30:24.2] JU: It’s a hilarious – I won’t swear on the podcast but you just need to like open up –
[0:30:28.1] MA: I will do that. I always take –
[0:30:29.9] JU: It’s not the nails.
[0:30:30.9] MA: Okay.
[0:30:31.8] JU: It’s so funny. One thing Ian said, he dropped this into the chat, which I really like, he said, “Tell me your story” is a great way that Irish folk consistently open dialogue. What’s your story? I’ve always thought that was powerful.
[0:30:44.7] MA: Yeah, I love that. I was unaware of that but I am going to look into that and then the “I’m the nail.” I’m going to do both.
[0:30:51.5] JU: Oh, it’s not the nail. It’s not the nail.
[0:30:54.3] MA: It’s not the nail, it’s not the nail, got it.
[0:30:55.9] JU: Okay, let’s talk for a second about the concept, I’m shifting gears a little bit, there’s a couple of things that I want to make sure I cover. Cathedral versus brick.
[0:31:05.4] MA: Ah-ha, so I learned this from – I talk to a lot of people who are improvisation experts and many of us feel that in our communication, we have to just be brilliant. We have to really make an impact with everything we say and sometimes, the most important thing we can do is minimal or nothing. There’s this wonderful saying in the world of improv, “Don’t just do something, stay in there” and I love that.
It’s counterintuitive but sometimes, the best thing I can do is just listen or just nod my head or say, “Tell me more” and let the other person move on. So, this notion of all of us want to build a cathedral, this beautiful thing, we want to say the right thing, we want to say it well, we want to have great impact yet in the moment, perhaps the best thing we can do is just bring a brick that will help build the cathedral either that we built or somebody else builds or we collaborate the build together.
So again, it reduces pressure. When we feel like we have to build that cathedral on our own and we have to do it immediately, that’s a lot of pressure but if all I have to do is bring a brick that adds to your brick that adds to somebody else’s brick, that feels more manageable and more collaborative.
[0:32:18.8] JU: Yeah, I love our colleague, Dan Cline has a great line where he talks about if you and I are telling the story, you know using – let’s try it right now, Matt, you and me, one word at a time story.
[0:32:30.8] MA: I love this game.
[0:32:31.9] JU: So, I might say and I’m using this to make a point but I’ll say, okay, once –
[0:32:36.1] MA: Upon.
[0:32:37.5] JU: A.
[0:32:38.9] MA: Time.
[0:32:40.1] JU: There.
[0:32:41.1] MA: Was.
[0:32:41.9] JU: A.
[0:32:41.9] MA: Gorgeous.
[0:32:44.5] JU: Fish.
[0:32:45.8] MA: Who.
[0:32:47.0] JU: Needed.
[0:32:48.4] MA: To.
[0:32:49.6] JU: Be.
[0:32:50.8] MA: Free.
[0:32:52.1] JU: Okay, so one of the things that I said was, A, you know, once upon a time there was a, and one of the things Dan mentions is sometimes the most courageous and creative thing you can do is contribute A or say Thee, you know? Everybody wants to have the big word, the exciting word, you know? I kind of picture that as I was reading your cathedral versus brick analogy.
[0:33:19.1] MA: Right, exactly.
[0:33:20.1] JU: Everybody wants the fish or the free, right? That’s a great word. It’s like, “Whoa, you got to say free?” But the point is, what’s the next brick in the sequence? That’s what enables somebody else to be to say free but I love that. The way that he puts it is dare to be obvious. Just say the obvious next thing.
[0:33:38.6] MA: Yeah, exactly, and then, in fact, Dan Cline is a great friend of mine and he partners with Adam, who I’ve already mentioned and they are on my – this week’s episode of my podcast talking about that very concept. So yeah, it must be in the atmosphere but yes.
[0:33:56.3] JU: Cross promo, cross promo.
[0:33:57.8] MA: There you go, there you go. Hey, every opportunity.
[0:34:00.2] JU: Okay, so let’s talk about your podcast for a second because this, what folks who listen to my show know is that I love to talk about folk’s books if they have written books but then I also love to talk about their process and you are a really interesting creator and that you not only have a book but you actually have a really robust podcast and I would love for you to talk a little bit about first of all, maybe tell folks who don’t know it, what is your podcast, what’s the premise, etcetera?
[0:34:24.2] MA: So, the podcast is called Think Fast Talk Smart. You can see I’m not very creative with names. The book is, Think Faster Talk Smarter, and the podcast was born in January 2020. Its sole focus is to help people hone and develop their communication skills. All of us I believe can get better at our communication and so we started it, we interviewed people like you, you’ve been a guest, a very popular guest of ours.
We talk to people who are deep academics in the fields of negotiation and persuasion and we talk about other issues like speaking as non-native speakers and how to make our ideas resonate, etcetera, and it’s been a lot of fun.
[0:35:00.8] JU: It’s an amazing show. You’ve got a fan here, Jen Karat is saying the podcast is fantastic.
[0:35:04.7] MA: Yes, I know Jen and she’s awesome.
[0:35:04.7] JU: Hopefully, you enjoyed our conversation on the podcast, Jen. Here’s a question for you in regards to podcasting, how do you prepare? These are incredibly spontaneous conversations, what do you do in the sphere of your podcast to prepare to be spontaneous?
[0:35:24.3] MA: Yeah, so I work very carefully to understand the guest's needs and what they’re approaching. When you were a guest, I read your material, I look at some of the – your sessions you do and really try to understand what’s important to the person and then I’ve seen my role as the host as really the bridge between the guest and the audience. So, I put myself in the audience’s perspective and say, “What would they want to know and what value do I believe that the guest material can bring?”
So, I come up with themes, I might think of some specific questions but I really try to be in the moment. I will write out typical questions and I send them to guests just so they know what I’m thinking of but I then tell them I might not ask all these questions and I might change it up. It is going to be very organic and dynamic but I think it’s important to anchor people just like I think if you are going into a Q&A session, you should have some themes in mind that you want to cover and maybe some examples that you might want to apply.
Again, we’re not memorizing or scripting but to stockpile I think makes a lot of sense in some of these circumstances and that’s how I prepare and then whenever we start, before we actually start recording, I love to engage in just some banter and small talk just to feel that flow and that rhythm and then we get going and in fact, you and I did that today before we started this and I think that’s a really crucial part.
We all think that we can go from silence to brilliance and I don’t know that that’s always true. I think you have to warm up. You know, if you’re an athlete or you do exercise, warm-up is really important and I think that’s true for these kinds of things as well.
[0:36:56.4] JU: You know, one thing I found that just in my own practice is even talking with a guest before, not just in the ten minutes before but scheduling a call on the week or two before is actually a – especially if it’s – I mean, you and I know one another. There are guests that I have that I’ve never met before, you know? And having a phone call, like I’ll never forget, I had Ed Catmull on a couple of months ago and I requested 15 minutes just to connect with him ahead of time and kind of feel out what he’s interested in. He and I talked for over 90 minutes on the phone.
[0:37:27.9] MA: Wow.
[0:37:28.4] JU: He was actually – to me that was actually I wish that conversation could have been recorded as the podcast anyway because it was so interesting but you never know. I mean, I want to respect people’s time. You know, I say, “Hey, if I could talk to you for 15 minutes it would be helpful to just talk about themes” things like that but I find that then when we go live, it’s, “Hey, how are you, my friend?”
You know, I know you rather than, “Hey, stranger” you know, we don’t have to feel each other out because we’ve kind of established a connection ahead of time.
[0:37:56.4] MA: I think that’s important and I think there’s a lesson in that for life in general is take the time to get to know people before you do the heavy lifting and the hard work and the conversations you have to have and the work you have to do.
[0:37:56.4] JU: Is there anything just on the podcast? One other thing, when it comes to producing what a lot of folks may not appreciate is that depending on the show production, there is actually a pretty heavy lift after the conversation takes place. How do you think about, is there a role for spontaneous, or how do you think about your area of expertise as it pertains to kind of post-recording production of a show?
[0:38:34.7] MA: Yeah, so I think what you’re talking about is editing and some of the best moments that I think happened are those spontaneous ones. It’s the things that come from the – again, the biggest thing that helps for effective spontaneous communication from my perspective is structure, framework. So, spontaneity happens within a structure. I’ll give you an example, when you see improvisers do what they do, they’re following rules, rules like yes-and.
So, if you and I are in a scene Jeremy and you say, “Hi, Matt, good to see you grandpa” I become grandpa, and also, I’m not a grandpa. I’m your boss, right? By saying yes-and the improv goes well. Jazz musicians, they don’t just play random notes, they actually play chord progressions that they have learned and know, their structure. In my book, I interviewed somebody who designs playgrounds and I found this fascinating.
It turns out kids play much more creatively and freely and have more fun on playgrounds than if they just had an open field. You would think kids are so creative, they’ll just be great, give them an open field and they’ll do great things. It turns out when kids play together in an open field, they start using each other as a playground, so it doesn’t go well but setting up the structure allows kids to be more free and creative and the same thing is true when it comes to I think podcasting and conversations in general.
Having a structure in general allows for that freedom. So, when I’m editing in the post-production, I’m looking for those moments of spontaneity and freedom that really work well and then trying to figure out how to make them as clear and concise so that people can really appreciate the lessons but also the sense of experience second hand of what happened in that moment.
[0:40:10.3] JU: Yeah, that’s great. I mean, it makes me think too of brainstorming. You know, people can think that that’s the most free-wheeling, rule-less, lawless environment but what we know as folks who facilitate kind of idea generation is actually no, it’s carefully curated. It’s an interaction that is supported by probably the most rules of the design process actually kind of brainstorming, right?
Because if you don’t have that structure, folks in creativity doesn’t flourish. It actually wilts on the vine without that structure.
[0:40:10.3] MA: That’s a great example, I’m going to start using that as an example of how brainstorming does have these rules and structures that allows it to be as effective as it is.
[0:40:50.1] JU: Yeah, and people who know that actually get much better results than people who just think, “I can wing it.” And no, you can’t, don’t wing it. Do not wing this, although I’ll tell you what, I’m here and I was telling you I’m in Dallas with a company and I had this, I don’t know if you’ve ever done this game “Oh good.” Have you ever played that game?
[0:40:50.1] MA: I have, yeah.
[0:41:10.9] JU: So, for folks who may not know it, there’s kind of you give one another a gift. So, I might say, “Hey, Matt, you know here’s an AirPod case” and you say?
[0:41:10.9] MA: Oh good, I need an AirPod case.
[0:41:10.9] JU: Yeah, I need to charge my AirPods or whatever. You say it’s good but then the second prompt is now give them something bad, you know like, “Oh Matt, I got this staple, you know?” Oh good –
[0:41:10.9] MA: I need to make sure I don’t prick my finger when I have to pull the staple out because I accidentally put it in the wrong quarter.
[0:41:10.9] JU: I thought when you look down, I thought you’re going to say, “I needed something to hold my waist pants together” which I thought was going to be amazing. That was just a reminder of that –
[0:41:10.9] MA: It’s probably true but –
[0:41:54.6] JU: I was doing – so I’m doing like a live demo before this group of Pepsi execs and I had this lady said, “Give me a good thing, you know it’s a scrunchie.” I said, “Oh good, my kids are always wanting gifts when I come home from my travels.” And then I said, “Now, somebody give me a bad gift” and this woman held up a spoon that was in her yogurt that had granola on it. She’s like, “Here’s a yogurt-y granola-y spoon.”
And that, okay, and you know the point of the exercise, right? When you’re thinking, “Oh good” everything is a gift, and anything is – and so because it’s not the raw material doesn’t matter. It is actually your attitude towards the raw material that matters.
[0:42:30.8] MA: That’s right.
[0:42:30.8] JU: I kid you not Matt, and I’m reaching and my first thought was not “Oh, good.” It was, “Oh crap, what am I going to do with a spoon, you know?” I kid you not Matt, what I saw myself doing, I grabbed the spoon out of her hand, I took the yogurt off in my mouth and I said, “Oh good, I’ve been wanting to build up my immune system.” The place lost it, I mean, it was the most perfect example of I had no idea how it was going to be good but by deciding that it must be good, it became like this amazing moment.
[0:43:02.2] MA: That’s exactly right. You know, one of the things I love about improv and Patricia Ryan Maddison, who is a guru of improv is you just start. You just commit to start. You say, “It is good” and then you make it good and so many of us are afraid of taking that initial step of just starting and when you do that start, it’s amazing what your mind can do. So, good on you playing that “Oh good” that way.
[0:43:02.2] JU: It’s always it feels like you’re walking on a tightrope when you do a live demo. You kind of never know what you’re going to get but that’s – it’s like moments like that that it’s actually it’s impossible to script and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I mean, it’s just, it’s the definition of spontaneous conversation. The last thing I really wanted to talk about and that if you have other stuff then by all means, we can but I wanted to hear about the value of mistakes as and how you reframe mistakes.
[0:44:02.2] MA: So, I think making mistakes are critical. That’s how we learn, that’s how we develop. We tend to not want to make mistakes and we get really upset with ourselves when we make mistakes. So, I like to reframe mistakes as missed-takes. Now, all of us are familiar with or many of us are familiar with when you’re recording a TV show or a movie, directors ask their actors to do multiple takes.
They use that clapboard where they come in and take one, take two, and they do this not because any one particular take is bad or wrong, they’re simply looking for difference, for variety to pull out something a little more subtle or something of that nature. So, maybe the actor stands and then maybe the actor sits and delivers the line. Maybe the actor looks directly at the camera or looks away.
Each take is slightly different but none is wrong, they’re just looking for nuance, they’re looking for difference. So, actors don’t feel like, “Oh, I screwed up because I have to do another take.” It’s just part of the job. It’s part of what you do and the ultimate goal is the more takes you do, the better the outcome is in the end and so if we can see the foibles that we have or the miss speaking that we have is just a missed-take and we’re just going to do another take.
The next time we do it, it takes a lot of pressure off of us. It allows us to learn and see ourselves as developing and growing. So, I love this notion of missed-takes. In fact, when I make a mistake in my teaching, I do this all the time, I’ll just stop, and I’ll tell my students, “All right, take two” and we do it either again or we just take off from there and it’s empowering actually rather than disempowering.
[0:45:32.4] JU: That’s great. There’s really something powerful there that you just called out that’s worth noting. Calling attention to it doesn’t make it worse. Sometimes, it actually legitimize. There’s kind of the what layer of operating and then there’s the how layer of operating and the content itself is often the what. How I respond to the content is often, there are principles there that I hope to communicate or impart, right?
And when you say, “Take two” that’s not a content piece, it’s actually we value the opportunity to learn from errors, right?
[0:46:06.8] MA: Yeah.
[0:46:06.8] JU: And I don’t have to hide and I’m not embarrassed and in fact, I’m so proud of it, I just called it out but to me what that does is it reinforces a value that is at the kind of operating system level and the only way you can do that in that case is actually by calling out a mistake.
[0:46:22.0] MA: Absolutely and I think it can be very useful in terms of, for anybody listening in who’s a leader or a parent, by demonstrating it, I think it’s really important. Now, I will say Jeremy, there are times where I think doing that kind of meta-explanation or demonstration can actually work against you. Let me give you the example of, when we’re nervous saying, “Oh, I’m so nervous” before we speak, I actually that does a disservice to you.
We do it because we want sympathy and empathy from the audience but in so doing what we’ve done is prime the audience to notice everything we do that conveys we’re nervous. So, there are times where I think exactly what you said, it demonstrates a role model, it normalizes but there are certain circumstances as I gave the example of expressing anxiety, it can actually work against you.
So again, there’s not a one-size-fits-all recommendation here but I absolutely agree with your point, especially around this notion of mistakes and failure and learning from it.
[0:47:18.4] JU: It seems like there is a full circle moment as we come to the top there, as we come back to the beginning of the conversation because while it’s probably bad form to say, “I’m so nervous” I bet it’s a really great form to say, “I’m so excited.”
[0:47:18.4] MA: Absolutely and in fact, I do that all the time.
[0:47:35.9] JU: When you do that, that’s actually a gift to yourself and you do it as a gift to the audience because now the audience is interacting with somebody who is excited.
[0:47:42.2] MA: Right, totally.
[0:47:42.2] JU: Where just like you’re self-reenforcing, it’s beautiful.
[0:47:46.2] MA: I love it and it’s a nice way to bring things back to you see, you’re very good at this hosting thing.
[0:47:46.2] JU: No, no, no, it’s just I got lucky. So, one thing I wanted to mention is Aaron dropped in the chat here. He said, “I noticed” and you and I have actually talked about this. I thought it might be fun kind of a behind-the-scenes moment. Aaron said, “I noticed when you both interview people, you’ll add a connection point or a quip or make a statement of something you learned while listening to their answer.”
“Assuming you do this intentionally, how do you decide when to do it or how often to do it?” I know, Matt, from our last walk conversation that this is something that you actually do deliberately. You want to answer Aaron’s question?
[0:48:22.8] MA: Yeah, so I am a passionate learner and so part of what you’re noticing Aaron is selfish for me because when I call it out, it’s my way of making sure I remember it. It’s like putting a pin in it for myself because when I say it, I remember it better. So, part of it driven by selfish needs. I, in the role of a podcast host or as a teacher, I try in the moment to think of all – I mean, Jeremy is full – is a fountain of knowledge.
There is so many interesting good useful ideas. I try to prioritize in my mind what’s the most important that I think is helpful for me and helpful for others and that’s the one that I pick up or the one that’s most counterintuitive or maybe it’s the one that’s most subtle but there’s something that’s the of it that’s the most subtle, the most interesting, the most useful, and that’s what I’m looking for and when I listen and I’m careful because I want to make my wife doesn’t.
My wife always tells me I need to listen better, she says I have to practice what I teach but when I listen, I try to listen for those the’s. So, I’m listening like, “Oh, that’s the most interesting thing I’ve heard him say so far or that’s the thing that’s most intriguing to me.” So, it causes me to listen in a different way as well because if I am just listening at a high level, it’s hard for me to pick out those most important things.
So, I am constantly listening for what’s the bottom line, what’s the most important in this moment to me, that’s how I do it. How do you do it, Jeremy?
[0:48:22.8] JU: You know, I think for me, I agree with your point that I’m a learner and there’s something about saying it in my own words that helps. It actually brings the point together and also, I find there’s an extreme case of this like Scott Galloway, a lot is potential jokes on his podcast that’s a just a thinly veiled opportunity for him to talk about himself. I don’t go that far but I would say that I try not to be an empty vessel in a sense or I’d rather quote to you that I love to was arrive open but not empty.
[0:48:22.8] MA: I like that.
[0:50:17.8] JU: And I thought that was really beautiful. I can’t remember who said it, it’s not my idea, I just read it but this notion of I’m open but I have something to offer too and I think to me, part of the service that we perform in hosting conversations like this is not just the guests we bring on but it’s actually our own unique perspective on that guest because the truth is, you’re joining a hundred podcasts to talk about your book, right?
Why does somebody listen to this one? It also has something to do with me and the worldview and disposition that I bring to the conversation and why does someone listen, you know, [inaudible 0:50:17.8] make you listen to them anywhere, why do they come to your podcast listening to them? Because there’s something about you that you bring to that conversation. I feel if we hold ourselves back too much, we rob the audience of the opportunity to be connected to us and be connected to the guest with us.
[0:51:06.8] MA: Wow, you’ve made me feel very good. I do think anyone who’s good at facilitating communication and interaction brings a piece of themselves to it and I think that’s very important because otherwise, it’s just a generic interaction. So, I do think that there’s value in the synergy of the person you’re talking with and what you’d bring to it, for sure.
[0:51:27.3] JU: Well, and we live like I mean, even like this silly example of the spoon with the yogurt, I probably will never tell that story ever again but it just so happen that today I’m talking to you and now it’s like, you and I live, we’re constantly interacting with the world and so having an opportunity to share funny things that happen and new insights, you know, I think it increases our repertoire and our breadth of material that we can bring to bear in the classroom such as well as teachers.
[0:51:27.3] MA: Absolutely, and if you stop using that example, I will start using it because I think it’s a great example. Yeah, I’ll give you credit for it but I think it’s a beautiful example of an in-the-moment decision that was made that really hit the mark.
[0:51:27.3] JU: Now, you’d like to follow up with me and figure out whether I get sick later today because if I do, then it may be a cautionary tale, I don’t know. Anyway, Matt Abraham’s book is, Think Faster Talk Smarter, I’m so privileged to get to have you on the show. Happy publication week and we wish you all the best for the rest of the launch. Folks who joined us today, thank you for joining us, and until next time, hope you have a great day.
[0:51:27.3] MA: Thank you, Jeremy.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:52:32.2] JU: By day, I’m a professor but I absolutely love moonlighting as a front-row student next to you during these interviews. One of my favorite things is taking the gems from these episodes and turning them into practical tips and lessons for you and your team. If you want to share the lessons you picked up from this episode with your organization, feel free to reach out. I’d be thrilled to do a keynote on the secrets that I’ve gleaned from creative masters or put together a hands-on workshop to supercharge your next offsite adventure. Hit me up at jutley@jeremyutley.design for more information.
[END]
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